Jesus Come Quickly Anyway - Rapture Discussion
There is not entire agreement on the rapture issue and there will not be
until the time comes when the church is taken up at whatever time that
God has decided and in whatever manner. As you know I used to teach a
pre-trib rapture until I was convinced by scripture that it was in error
and leading the church into a false security. What I want to emphasize
that it really should not matter unless that false security is leading
to ineffectual action and witness in the world. This is not a
foundational doctrine or a nature of Christ issue that exposes heretics
but it may however divide us. For those that want to make a contention
out of the issue, it would seem that they will not be part of the
restoration process or the final unity anyway because that will take
love and humility.
The restitution of all things has started in the minds of hearts of
those that have been called to bring it about and that it will not be
completed until after the Times of the Gentiles are over. That means
during the tribulation period, many of us will be a part of it no matter
when Jesus takes the saints and the Bride needs to be readied. For those
of you that believe that we will be here and those of us that believe
that we will not be, I can only ask that each of us act as if each of us
will be together until the Lord comes and that we can work side by side
in the harvest.
Anyone that believes that either side of the rapture issue is promoting
heresy should from now on look at it from a perspective of love. The
same goes from millennial points of view. I will be taking a softer
stance on the rapture issue for the sake of the brethren, I suggest that
we all do that. Heretic bashing is something that this group is learning
about, many words have been said that should not have been said and it
is a learning process for all of us.
The amount of material on the issue is taking time for me to put
together but everything that can be said has been said and then some so
we can move on. There was only two responses to my question last time
about why the pre-trib rapture theory is so prevalent, one came from
Dean, who like myself is studying church history. He is miles ahead of
me though, or should I say a furlong (his last name). He mentions that
it started in the 19th century, I found a source that has only recently
traced it to the 18th, but not much difference there.
For the next issue that we should discuss I am leaving up to you.
Possibly we can take on several issues at once unless they are as
complicated as this last one. I have a few things on my mind: Reason or
faith is one (I believe in both), the Sabbath day or the Lord's day is
another (I believe in either), liberals and conservatives (I believe
that the actual words have been misunderstood), the millennial question,
the difference between salvation and sanctification, Calvinism or
Arminianism, philosophy, psychology, and many more that I am sure that
you could come up with. There are all kind of issues that we can find
with controversies that should keep us discussing these things until the
Lord comes, or at least until we all disappear.
Jay
Hey Jay...
I have never found evidence of a pre-trib rapture.... in Rev. 14: 14-20
we have the two-fold harvest... one for the Son of Man and another for
the wrath of God....
In Rev. 13 (verses 7 and 10) we find the saints at war with Satan and
having patience in tribulation.... how can there be saints if there is
no
church?
These are just a few of the many difficult passages which point to a
mid-trib rapture instead of a pre-trib rapture.
I also find it a very convenient theory... considering the persecution
of
the church world wide it is really a travesty....
Well... had to toss in my two cents.....
Mark O.
Hi Jay
Interesting question…why do so many people hold the
pre trib….i have a few suggestions….it began in the
19th century at a time when a lot of new doctrines
began…(ie like the Adventists, Campbellites,
Cooneyites, Mormons). England at the time saw the rise
of liberal theology, and Christians were wide open to
a new system that would return to a 'more literal'
method of interpretation and hold back the forces of
modernism. The Plymouth Brethren in England felt that
they were returning to a more apostolic church
pattern. There were some good men among them like
George Muller, and it was a sincere effort to return
to church unity which unfortunately soon went into
error and further schism. It seems that Darby was
probably looking for some new teaching to provide more
of an identity to the new movement and to further
distinguish it from 'Christendom'. He found that in
the pre trib rapture. Darby was famous for creating
controversy and for the power politics which plunged
the brethren into a split that remains to this day. He
disfellowshipped anyone who would stand in his way and
those faithful to him became very exclusive to the
point of cultism. (I don't know if you have many
'exclusive brethren' in the USA….there are still some
here in the UK….and they believe that if you wear a
tie or live in an apartment, or eat with someone not
in the exclusives, that you are a false Christian.)
However the doctrine never really gained a foothold in
this country outside of the Brethren and old style
Pentecostal churches. Not to say it was never
popular…the more moderate Brethren called the Open
Brethren became a major force in British
evangelicalism up to about the 1960's. They were the
most active in evangelism and bible study and a lot of
Christians were part of it. Then in the '60's they all
got filled with the Spirit, dropped the
dispensationalism and joined the British
Restorationalist movement (Charismatic…ever heard of
Arthur Wallace…he was one of the major guys in the
early years). Now the Open Brethren are pretty much
dead, apart from a few die hards. It seems that
dispensationalism came to America later but a similar
trend towards liberal theology was developing in the
US which was to lead to the famous 'monkey trials'.
Once Scofield incorporated it into his notes it was
just a matter of time until people unconsciously
accepted it. I also suspect at the time that
fundamentalists wanted a more 'American' approach to
theology and so, like with Darby, this began to
provide an identity for American fundamentalist
Baptists. I suspect too that the Pentecostals were
lured in by what claimed to be a more literal and
fundamentalist interpretation. It has also fit in well
with 'easy believism' which seems to have such a grip
in American at the moment (for those wondering I have
spent a lot of time in America and will be moving
across the pond soon so I am speaking from experience
and not what I have heard). As to why people hold
it….that has confused me for a long time…I know we are
all subject to deception but how can people swallow
something that is so obviously contrary to all
Scripture. When I hear people defending it all they do
is use questionable texts and yet they have a passion
about it as though they don't doubt it for one
minute….. It is a comfortable doctrine, and to
question it hurts the flesh. 'Let's all just 'accept
Jesus' and then everything will be alright. You will
get whisked away before the trouble starts and you
will have an eternity in heaven. And of course don't
worry if your love grows cold and you fall away cuz
you have 'eternal security'. Just keep coming to
church anyway and live how you want.' Well praise God
for the five fold ministry that is waking up the bride
to put on the armour of light and be ready to overcome
in these days. Did anyone out there read Rick Joyner's
vision of the Harvest?
I would like to address the questions put forward:
1) Explain why Jesus tells us that no one knows the
day or the hour of
His coming but the Father alone. During the time of
His second
Coming, this world is in so much chaos, there is
not going to
be much of a surprise at all.
Let me turn it around….if the pre trib is
true…everyone who has read Left Behind will know that
the second coming is in 7 years. Also the second
coming is not meant to come as a surprise to us who
are children of light…we do not know the exact time
but we know the season. We are not in darkness that
that day should overtake us as a thief.
2) Why has God consistently brought His people to
safety every time,
prior to any calamity? ie.. Noah, Lot, etc
God will take us up so that we are not judged with the
world when Jesus returns in flaming fire taking
vengeance on them that love not God. But we are
promised persecutions. I believe that we can claim
deliverance or choose to obtain a better resurrection
and remain in it.
3) During the time of the millennium, the Earth is
repopulated.
If Believers, are resurrected at His Second Coming,
who
populates the Earth during the millennium?
Are you denying that the saints receive their new body
at the last trumpet?
4) Can non pre-trib Believers explain John 14:2-3?
No one is denying the rapture.
5) Rev 19:11 clearly describes the Second Coming. In
verse 14 the
armies of heaven are following. The armies of
heaven are
the Believers
The great cloud of witnesses?
Please notice the lack of explicit reference and
reliance on questionable deduction in the texts used
by the writer (nothing personal Tony)
About the church fathers...one person said that two
fathers taught the doctrine...they didn't...two may
appear to but in context they don't (which I would be
glad to show if someone mentions where these
quotations are from). Someone recently brought out a
book to try and show that the fathers taught the pre
trib but the quotes are dishonest and out of context.
Once again look forward to the next instalment.
In Christ
Dean
February 15, 2000
Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
Index | Search This Site | Aristide.Org | The Latter Rain | Babylon the Great | The Kingdom | The Nicolaitans | Jezebel
The Baptism With the Holy Ghost | The Grand Delusion | World Trade Org | Liberation Theology | Jay Atkinson | Alphabetical Index